Talk:The Holy Draconian Empire - Change Proposal

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[edit] Phaidros

The most intense ship change wish I have is Organic armor for the Organic ship. That would suffice to really distinguish it from the Oberth. I don't need any of the other changes. With regard to redundancy in the ship list only the Mizar strikes me as really redundant as it is now.

Phaidros


[edit] Crucial Ships

I don't know why the DR-14, the Krait and the Artemis are not included in your list of most important ships, Lord Lancelot. I wouldn't want to wage war without any of them.

Seems a lot of people overlook the qualities of the DR-14. True, its a bit more expensive than its low tech brethren ships, but you get much more out of it.

Phaidros

Once you have tech 10 hull, and good economy why would you still buy DR-14 ? What are your reasons to but it early ? (when you have already hull tech 5) Lord Lancelot The Starting Krait is VERY important but in 95% of the game you will not need to buy a second one, unless you really need another ships with a super weapon, since the Krait cost so much in metals, you can have a very powerful fleet instead of a 2nd krait. Artemis is nice to have the possibility of jump gate but most game you will not build a single jump game, because of their high metal cost, and double edge sword, but they could be useful in some situation but IHMO are not vital fro the drac but is a Nice to have possibility. Lord Lancelot 16:29, 15 August 2008 (CEST)


DR-14: 1. It is the ship with the lowest scan profile and as such still the best for raids out of the dark. 2. It is a carrier at tech 3 and almost cloaked, too! How many other races can boast of that at such an early stage of the game. With wings made out of the starting fighters the DR-14 ship packs a punch. Add an assault pod with troops and there it is: a nice 'allrounder' for doing any near-enemy job. + 3. It is fast. The next faster alternative is the Mizar at tech 5, if the ship is to be used as a cargo transport. + 4. It is a very good early colonization and cargo ship with 3 pod bays. + 5. It has enough tow power to tow a Cerberus minelayer. +

Why do I rarely build a Dreysen and prefer a DR-14 instead? It is better for the reasons 1 and 2 and as good as the Dreysen with respect to speed (point 3) and only slighly worse with regard to cargo room (point 4). Why only "slightly worse"? Because as a Draconian your cargo is shuffled around with pods most of the time anyway. I don't do that quick round-up of surface resources in my neighbourhood and from the very beginning prefer to establish permanent bases with pod pads instead.

Krait: You need one Krait for homeworld defense unless you like to wage campaigns without any risk insurance. Even with low engines the Krait is a good scare weapon and with its large scan range it is an excellent explorer. Except if you are in mineral-low game the costs of neither the Krait nor the jumpgates are that big.

Jumpgates: Jumpgates are VERY important. If you control a jumpgate route strategically you have entered another league.

Jumpgates and wormholes carry some risks as entrance points for unwanted guests. However, I prefer to see them as the equivalent of watering holes of prey in the animal kingdom. As the hunter all you need is to keep a watchful eye waiting in ambush near them and as sure as the sun sets each day the prey will arrive...

We are saying the same thing, the Starting Krait is very important (& Balka), jumpgate can be very powerful and useful but you can win without them, I not proposing to remove the jump gate, I'm just putting in front what is absolutely needed for a win (like for the Robot JG).

Yes the security vessel (low signature is very nice) & other ships on the list have their (some) use.

I also think the Drac are fine the way they are now with the Balka and Krait starting ships. I would only increase the cargo hold of the Dreysen OR the DR-14 to a descent hold like 2000 (medium deep size)

Lord Lancelot 17:53, 15 August 2008 (CEST)

[edit] Hyper Scan REMOVED

Ashtar (from the newsgroup & drewhead) proposed to put the Hyper Scan on the Cerberus Class Frigate instead than on the DR-14 Security Vessel.
The trouble with this proposition is that the Cerberus is already an excellent ship, and the Security Vessel, is not worth building unless some new device are added, the cost of the Cerberus Class Frigate is too low to add new features, don't fix what is not broken.
Lord Lancelot 19:24, 9 November 2006 (CET)

Hyper scan is really not needed Lord Lancelot 16:18, 15 August 2008 (CEST)

[edit] Organic Ship / Organic Armor NOT NEEDED

Is there a reason for giving the Organic Ship some Organic Armor? It seems like it is just adding something to add something rather than contributing to the theme of the Draconians. It also has the potential to be a giant pain in the posterior if a Solar Gamma Ray is operating in the same area.
Amaranthine 21:11, 9 November 2006 (CET)

It was to match the name and the image of the ship, and to follow up on Asthar idea. I'm not famliar with Organic Armor, never had a ship with it, never faced ships with it.

Any idea or to improve the Organic Ship ?

Solar Gamma Ray:

  • during a combat it destroys 1 point of Organic Armor each tick on all ships having some like the Aurora Class Flagship

What about the others suggestions on other ships ?

Lord Lancelot 21:15, 9 November 2006 (CET)

Orgainic Armor makes a ship immune to Small Weapons and more resistant to Large Weapons (the Tech 9+ weapons all get about a 60% reduction). Merculite Rockets, on the other hand, essentially get a 1200% increase. Many swarmer ships would be absolutely powerless against this ship. If this is added, convert the large weapons into 4 more Small Weapons and boost its cargo capacity to 3000 or so. Make it a fortified freighter.

Instead of giving the Hydra the unique Q Tanker ability (especially on such a dirt cheap Hull), give it its own unique role. Simply bump its Point Defense slots up (maybe all the way to 10) and it becomes an excellent anti-fighter carrier platform, able to accompany Wings on long range raids. Being so cheap, you can also make one for each of your auto-intercepting defense wings, set it to second wave and to escort the Wing, and you can still have an "auto-refuel" effect. Amaranthine 18:52, 10 November 2006 (CET)

[edit] Oberth Class Assaultship OPTION A (Cloak) REMOVED

I think the 1 pod bay for the Oberth Class Assaultship OPTION A is a good thing it make the player make hard choice.
Prisoners is the only thing missing for a strong Draconian economy, and this ship is the key for getting prisoners due to his cloak.

  • Do I load a pod of fuel for long range cloaking, do I load an assault pod for ground attack...
  • After a succesful ground attack you can just retake your ground force or get the prisoners in a pod.
  • Well I could use them in pair one with a pod of fuel, and share fuel with the other ship, the other with a assault pod.
  • I could later trade the fuel pod for the prisoners pods.

Lord Lancelot 22:58, 11 November 2006 (CET)

There's a good point in that. At a price os 1,5KMC with an warp drag factor of 95 it´s a no-brainer to use more than one per assault.
How about the Fighter Bay? Following the same line of thought it should be striped too.(and this hull is now dirty cheap for an assault cloacker)
Guerreiro 00:51, 12 November 2006 (CET)

I do not mind at all removing the 1 fighter bay of 40, but is it really needed ? how powerful is a 40 size drac wing ? especially with host 199+ change to make small wing less powerful.
Lord Lancelot 03:26, 12 November 2006 (CET)

Youre right the cloak is enough, fighter bay removed. Lord Lancelot 21:19, 12 November 2006 (CET)

perhaps if you remove the fighter bay, you could install an additional pod bay instead, thus allowing for extended flights and still being able to dustoff or possibly 1 for dustoff and 1 for prisoner pods using the prisoner pod warp chunnel device if installed in the future. since this ship will be the one acquiring the prisoners, it should also be the one chunneling the prisoner pods. thus a need for an extra pod bay should that device become viable in vgap4 --protomatter 22:31, 1 July 2007 (CEST)

After seeing what an able player can do (Asthar) with their new starting ships and ressources, it is now quite easy to get the first batch of prisoners early (turn 10-20) the only thing I see them lacking is cargo room for less micro, and alchemy for late game as most prisoners race have alchemy or a special way to get minerals (drills / super weapons)...

Other little minor ships changes could be nice to have.

Lord Lancelot 23:50, 1 July 2007 (CEST)

[edit] Oberth Class Assaultship OPTION B REMOVED

6 	 Oberth Class Assaultship OPTION B 	 Add a Cargo Desk, Warrior Assault and Dust Off. Raise Armor from 100 to 500.


  • B Asthar
  • B add your nick/name here
  • B Total votes = 1

[edit] Oberth Class Assaultship OPTION C (HYP) REMOVED

REMOVED
Option C, let you go and get Prisoners, but you will have to either pod them home. Build a ship with Pod bay where the Prisoners are, or send a warp ship with pods bay from your HW to get them.

Cargo to 200. This will allow to bring metal, supply, MC to be able to build a new warp ship with pod bay to get the prisoners home, the Hydra Light class carrier would be the cheaper / better choice fro this job.

1 Pod would make it easier but, then it could be used as an HYP cargo, with the Drac are not designed for...

Lord Lancelot 01:08, 14 November 2006 (CET)


Is 10,000 Troops a significant Ground Attack force?

Sure it could take a poorly defended farming colony, but a few TCs on that should quickly churn out enough Troops to defend against it.
From Amaranthine post in the newsgroup

Well the ship cost a mighty 270 Mc and only a few metals. The Hyp engine cost 49Mc. It would not be hard to build enough of them to capture bigger target. But the 10 000 guest is just a try, maybe 20 000 is better ?

Lord Lancelot 12:56, 14 November 2006 (CET)


I agree that Draconians need early Prisioners to be a viable race, and slow speed is what makes it more difficult, but Hyperdrives is something that goes against the spirit of the race, according to Ryosaku Nakamura the dracs specifications: "They have no hyperspace " technology. He also pointed that: "Draconians are good navigators and can maximise their ship's warp speed potential (fast ships)". So I think it would be simpler just to allow 190ly speed to the Oberth Class Assault Ship, and don´t change anything else.
Hiddukel 09:39, 13 December 2006 (CET)

[edit] Oberth Class Assaultship OPTION D (SPEED) REMOVED

Agreed that Prisoners is the only thing missing for a strong Draconian economy; in my opinion the best way to help it, without touching some of the designers main concepts about draconians (say: no hyper, no cloack devices, but swiftness and quickness) would be increase max speed of the Oberth to 190ly and reduce even more the warp signature (Security Vessel has a 30 warp and is almost a semi-cloacker). I would not remove the fighter bay as many Draconian ships have one to compensate the low number of PD. Type 1 fighters are excellent anti-fighters so you dont need so many anti-fighter PD.
Hiddukel 10:56, 14 November 2006 (CET)


The trouble with this, is it will take a very long time for the Drac to reach engine tech 20 to put w190 on this.
By that time the enmy will have strong defense & minefields & ships etc...
So you will need to bring a big slow fleet of strong warship to clean the sky, than take the prisoners via ground combat...
This would only help them in middle late game, with warp 190 ship with pod bay for economic.

They need something under turn 20 to help take the prisoners.

Option A, you can send a slow warp 50 with cloak on, and grab some prisoners from a farm world.

Lord Lancelot 10:59, 14 December 2006 (CET)

[edit] Oberth Class Assaultship OPTION E (Planet surface cleaner)

Give him a new device: Planet Surface stuff Dust off. Dracs, lacking a good freighter, needs to be able to gather surface stuff.

Myflowers

[edit] Engines per hull

It always troubled me that the Titus Class Dreadnought had the same number of engines than the Scimitar Class Destroyer.

Guerreiro 00:52, 12 November 2006 (CET)

I see the Drac ship design very close to fed ships design, I would not reduce the engine on any of their ships, but it would make sense to go for 4 engines for the Westfalen Class Dreadnought, like a fed nova.
I would like to have others input for the engines...
Lord Lancelot 03:26, 12 November 2006 (CET)

I think there are two things to keep in mind regarding the number of engines: power output and cost.
As the Draconian are not very likely to have lots of Ghips, the cost factor is quite important.
Changing the small ships to 1 engine would make them much cheaper and therefore much more effective. So I'd keep the 2 engine design. The larger ships could have 4 engines making them a bit more costly, but on the other hand they get a greater power output needed for their large weapons.
Just my two cents, Jochen 11:14, 12 November 2006 (CET) Jochen 11:14, 12 November 2006 (CET)

I was thinking in the influence of engines in hitpoints too. The Eridanus Class Frigate would have a better Alphastrike-per-Mc but lower staying power. As it is there's not many reasons to build it instead of Balkas(apart 160mc). The eridanus fills a role as last ditch defense swarmer with its high powerbank, too slow, high warp drag to be used as atack swarmer.(btw eridanus is a mytological river, so the name is fitting with a defensive role)Guerreiro 18:15, 12 November 2006 (CET)

Keeping titus as original, Westfalen Class Dreadnought 2 to 4 engines.
Lord Lancelot 11:52, 13 November 2006 (CET)

[edit] Hull tech 8 Westfalen Class Dreadnought

  • How about raising, generator from 3 to 5 ?
  • How about raising to more than 4 engines ? (for more power to weapons)
IMO 4 engines 5 generators is enough. 2LTLA+ 6 other LW, not all plasma guns(I see engines more like a RP thing)Guerreiro 15:57, 13 November 2006 (CET)

[edit] new device prisoner dust off REMOVED

this device already exists. its called the Reticulian Light Beam it beams up 50,000 prisoners per pod i believe. i wouldnt suggest adding the Incarceration Beam to this race as it wouldnt supply enough crew to run the camps. the Reticulian Light Beam however would be more than sufficient to enhance the races ability to take prisoners. dont make a duplicate device to do the same job.--protomatter 20:51, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

If we got the Reticulian Light Beam onto the Organic ship, that would be quite something. People would start to complain soon. Phaidros

It is not the same thing at all, prisoner dust off work only on prisoners, that the drac will get the regular way via ground combat, it is a way to move the prisoners acquired faster.

Reticulian Light Beam make prisoners (way too easy IMO).

also check the 2nd ability prisoners pod warp chunnel

Lord Lancelot 21:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

i see very lil need to move prisoners in that way, lauch a life pod full of prisoners to the ship in orbit besides the likelyhood of the dracs obtaining 5 000 000 prisoners without a device such as the reticulan light beam would be pointless. the dracs need an improved way of capturing prisoners before they can move them. the incarceration beam takes too few. and ground assaults are more rare from non hyper races unless your the lizards.

providing they get a device such as the reticulan light beam, then i could see a need for prisoner dust off. heck the UEA have better chance of getting 5,000,000 prisoners than the dracs do. and they havent need a prisoner dust off device ever. while i like the idea of the device i merely dont see its usefulness until the dracs can actually obtain large quantitys of prisoners in a easier fashion. right now i can see the EE peeps UEA and azcanny having need of the prisoner dust off device. but not the dracs until that probem of acquisition is resolved.--protomatter 22:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The Drac have good troop strenght, and can make prisoner when used right, check P4League 3b Ashtar playing the drac, made many prisoners via ground combat, and continue to do so.

Lord Lancelot 04:34, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Solar gamma ray NO CHANGE NEEDED

Since Dracs are an evil race who needs prisioners, no sense to have a Weapon to kill colonist... at least not only colonist. It should kill Crew,Troops,mechs, Ionic Deflectors, AA Guns, etc too (not affecting poeples in undercities) and increase the planet Temp. This decimates the base defenses to make a GroundAssault. Only fire the SGR against bases if the planet is set as Kill target.

If you remove the Nemesis Torpedo, then the SGR should be able to be fired against ships in VCR and act like a Nemesis Torpedo (but less range, say 300 km, and less blast power, say 1/4 of Nemesis Torpedo) every 300-400 ticks (Dracs ships and fighters are immune, race+hull abillitiy). Myflowers

[edit] AD-22 Marauder

As Boarding ship, byside increasing his guest and crew, give him CLOAK (or at least semi-cloack) and a Gravitonic Accelerator. Myflowers

[edit] Draco Star Base NOT NEEDED

If parked on a planet orbit, give him automatically a Grav Well Generator. This feature disappears if it is in deep space. As balancing, don't let Dracs use Hyper Ships. Myflowers

[edit] Ground Combat NO Change NEEDED

Since a couple of years, the idea of a Dracs-Chupas symbiosis is rounding my mind. With a High Dark Power, they have control of wild Chupanoids if present. Before the ground combat begins, chupas will destroy mechs and laser cannons (50 chupas=1 mech type 1, 60 chupas=1 mech type 2, 70 chupas=1 mech type 3, 30 chupas=1 Laser cannons) at a max of 20% mechs and 30% laser cannons. The idea is that chupas acts as "Gremmlins". Myflowers

Dracs has a nice troop combat strenght, but let them force a surrender due high dark power if enough troops are present preserving colonists (prisioners) deaths in combat. Myflowers

[edit] Laser Mine Droppers

  • Laser Mine Dropper (as well as the Barbitic Mine Dropper) on the Dreysen and Pegasi, for a bit of assistance vs cloakers and fighters. Shard 22:10, 15 August 2008 (CEST)

[edit] Artemis: Food to Supply Converter

  • As a slow growing race Dracs could have some extra food, so convert extra food into supplies, and from there to fuel (or ord, see below). Shard 22:10, 15 August 2008 (CEST)

Nice Idea. Phaidros.

[edit] Draco: Mobile Ord Factory

  • 'Free' ord (no mc required) will help the Drac economy and is suitably militaristic. Will work well with the Food to Supply Converter suggestion above. Shard 22:10, 15 August 2008 (CEST)

[edit] Pegasi: Advanced Training

  • The Dracs are have both a slow growth rate and low training rates (unlike other slow growth rate races that have strong GA like the EE and UEA, which have high training rates), so give them a boost to their troop numbers. Shard 22:10, 15 August 2008 (CEST)

Another nice one. However, don't underestimate the Dracs as they are right now. Due to their high dark force, crew - which the Drac have plenty - fight well in ground combat. Phaidros.

[edit] Polaris: Super Tow

  • Increase the tow power on the Polaris to 3000 (tow a Krait or a Draco). It needs 10 engines and it's not very quick, but it's still cheaper than the 24 needed on a Krait. Shard 22:10, 15 August 2008 (CEST)

[edit] Next Idea here <

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