Talk:Star Boiler
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This will be too stong when solarian are in a game.
Lord Lancelot 07:39, 30 May 2006 (CEST)
Especially if the Mivorari Novae Research Ship is in the possesion of the Solorian. The "cost" of fuel would be totally negated by steadily increasing the starheat, which is the source of Solorian Fuel.
The ability to increase a star to its next highest type should be removed or, at the very least, its cost significantly increased.
The ability to raise the temperature within a startype is not so important. Still quite an enticement for the Solorian to enlist the Mivorari as allies, but not insanely so.
Amaranthine
The star boiler is ment to be a different way to terraform. Some of the planet heat come from the star. So changing the star heat the planet get an other tempature. If the receiving fuel is to strong for the game, it can be removed. The Mivorari can also be an enemy of the Solors. What can happen then, you can imagine. --Mivorari 17:23, 2 June 2006 (CEST)
Starheat is a very valuable commodity for the Solorian. They generate fuel from it and their growth rate is directly related to it. I like the concept, but the current costs are much too low, considering the potential huge benefit to a Solorian/Mivorari alliance.
I would suggest two changes.
- 1. Mivorari ships captured by a Solorian do not generate any fuel. This could be restricted to just the Novae, but it seems easier to justify that the Mivorari ships just aren't compatible with the Solorian fuel gathering techniques. This takes care of free fuel being used to heat up a star to generate even more free fuel.
- 2. Increase the cost to change to a hotter star type to 1700 or so. This makes it a significant chunk of fuel, which the Solorian cannot help gather in any way.
How about going in the opposite direction Star Cooler
Making them natural enemy of the Solarian.
Lord Lancelot 17:06, 2 June 2006 (CEST)
Before we do some changing on the Star Boiler, you don't forget, the device has 4 functions in it. Function 1 and 2: You can change a dwarf into a giant. Not in one turn, but you can. You can also do the opposite. Change a giant into a dwarf. Function 3 and 4: you can change the heat of the star. You can change it from the lowist value of the star to the highest value of the star. But you can also can do the opposite. So change it from a hot (let say Giant) to a colt one. The range is 10 degree.
But now the Solor. I don't like the Idea of a very strong Solor/Mivorari alliance with this device. So i can add the follow... When a Solor object (ship, base, wing, pod) is in the star system, the star boiler can only cool down a star. What do this mean... Als enemy, destroy that Solor object. As an ally, there can´t any Solor be when you change the star. What do you think? Or something like this. It can be a bad thing... --Mivorari 17:23, 2 June 2006 (CEST)
Make the device only work when Vorlon crew are on board (does not work for any other races)
They are other devices like that already.
I like your idea to check for Solarian objects, How about if any solarian objects are in 250ly the device can only Cool...
Lord Lancelot 17:27, 2 June 2006 (CEST)
A simpler method of control (and simpler items may be easier to convince Tim to implement) would be to limit the maximum to which the Boiler could increase a star type. If the Boiler could only increase the Star Type up to the Yellow Trinary, then the power of the Solorian/Mivorari combo is greatly reduced. The primary problem would be creating large number of Blue Giants of >90 starheat. The Solorian get a massive population boost from such stars. Preventing the Mivorari from creating such stars removes this potential problem entirely. If this simple limit was included, then I wouldn't have any other objections to this device, as is. Amaranthine
Simply checking for Sol objects doesn't work. The Mivorari could easily heat the star up and go away and after that the sol would chunnel a base to that planet. A limit would indeed be better.
Jochen 18:51, 2 June 2006 (CEST)
I forget to say.. The feul received. We can simply restrict that. A Star Boiler works only in Mivorari hands. So there must be, at least, 1 Mivorari vrew onboard of the ship. So no other race can use that device. The same rule apply (?) for the other Mivorari ship devices.
In small maps the 250 ly range can be to big, if the Solor is your neighbour. In big maps, it's no problem.
A feedback against Solor ships can be added, but then the Star Boiler will be used as an attack weapon. That's not what it is.
Increasing the Star type to a higher level can be more costable. I mean cost more fuel as the star get closer to the Giant. Or stop if the star is an Yellow Trinary.
Formula: 72 * StrTypeNo.
Yellow Trinary = 17
Blue Giant = 21
Cooling down a star is no problem. Even if the star is lower then a Yellow Trinary.
An other posibillity can be. Turn round the Star Boiler. The Mivorari don't like hot planets, but like coll planets. Close to the Robot, but not to close. So the Star Boiler cools down the star to that level. Somewhere round a Neutron-Yellow binary. So a Mivorari/Solor ally can't use the Star Boiler for free Solor fuel.
< Almost deleted Jochens part by mistake >
--Mivorari 19:32, 2 June 2006 (CEST)
FREEZE the Solarian !
It would be more unique if the Mivorarai like cold star instead of hot like Solarian, and if they can cold down star they become enemy # 1 of the Solarian.
Lord Lancelot 21:54, 2 June 2006 (CEST)
I think I will do this. So we won't get over and over a discussion about the Solors and the Star Boiler. Some more Ideas?
--Mivorari 23:38, 2 June 2006 (CEST)
Are you planning on totally removing the ability to increase to a hotter star type then?
Amaranthine
The Star Boiler ends always (at least) by a Neutron-Yellow Binary. Looks fair to me. So make the star hot till the Neutron-Yellow Binary, or make the star cool to the Neutron-Yellow Binary. --Mivorari 20:15, 5 June 2006 (CEST)
This is great, star heat of 26-46, are of no real use to the solarian.
I just noticed the device change base frequency, how come ?
If this device alter the star, how his this affect the planet in any way ?
I think this part (base freq) should be removed, and if you need to have a device to alter the base frequency, their is a lot of already working device to choose from, less coding for Tim.
Lord Lancelot 22:59, 28 October 2006 (CEST)
In the past Tim has an other code for the planet temp. If was something like this:
HdHeat = HdInertia ^(1/2)
DeltaStress = BaseFreq - HdHeat
HdStress = HdStress + DeltaStress
So will changing the Base Freq and Starheat the Planet Temp will also changed. But now Tim have changed this code to something simple. The basic idea of the StarBoiler must be the same as designed, but I think something go wrong now.
By changing the starheat the planet temp must also changed. But I think this will not work now. What if i change it to this:
When the Starboiler cools down the star the planet will also cools down the same tempature.
Sure why not, I would sugest you leave (remove that ability) alone base freq, and make Starboiler cools down the star the planet will also cools down the same tempature.
Maybe make some star types immune to the star boiler ? To avoid all planets being 100% in farm range. Or maybe something like for each star type changed, -5 soil rating (changing 5 times -25 soil rating) maybe even -10 per star type changed. So extreme change reduce a the value of the planet soil rating, but little change does not.
After re-reading and thinking a bit I think it should be -10.
Lord Lancelot 12:54, 29 October 2006 (CET)
-10 ? The Star Boiler can only change a star 1 star type a turn. So change a star from a Blue Giant to a Neutron-Yellow binary cost 12 turns to do that. A starting Blue Giant with a soil rate of 120 will end up in a Neutron-Yellow binary with a soil rate of 0. I think this is to much. --Mivorari 20:19, 29 October 2006 (CET)
Your right, I forgot about the time cost, than -5 should be enought, and blue giant are very rare on a map sometimes 0-4, I curently playing the solarians on on 50% of the scanned map I found 2 blue giant, 9 RED GIANT, maybe 9 BINARY GREEN including 4 that I changed via the solarian special 5 turn. For sure your race will be biggest menace to the Solarians, witch is good.
Lord Lancelot 21:42, 29 October 2006 (CET)
I don't know the partition (?) of the stars on the map. But 3 till 5 soil reduction can be a good thing.
There will be a big fight against the two hyper races. They are walking thru the stars :)
I doesn't matter for me if the Star Boiler works before of after movement. Both have strong points and weak points for it.
--Mivorari 23:29, 29 October 2006 (CET)
I also think it does not really matter from a strategic or play balance point of view, when the Star Boiler work, but to keep the logic of the game, and the special rules as low as possible, all ship devices should work after movement, Must player will assume all device are after movement witch is 99% true.
Lord Lancelot 00:07, 30 October 2006 (CET)
If the starboiler works after movement it will work in the same turn you jumped to a undefense enemy base. I see no problem with that. But some players will do. So Tim can decide when the device will work. For him is it better that al devices will work at the same time.--Mivorari 00:47, 30 October 2006 (CET)
But it does not change anything if it is before movement, the same unprotected base, will suffer a star type change at the beginning of the turn and the mivorari ship will escape before combat occur. :) Lord Lancelot 00:57, 30 October 2006 (CET)
I change that to arter movement. I do this also with the other devices who will be active at that time of the host. --Mivorari 18:46, 30 October 2006 (CET)
[edit] 2 X the CC STR
in the article
Lord Lancelot 07:34, 17 December 2007 (CET)